S1:E4 Alice Gu and The Donut King

In this episode of The Smith Society we have the incredible opportunity to chat with the extraordinary director (and dear friend), Alice Gu and learn more about The Donut King.

Alice Gu is an award-winning director and Director of Photography. A Los Angeles native, Alice began her career as a director of photography, working with world-renowned directors like Werner Herzog and Stacy Peralta.

In 2017, Alice garnered attention for her work behind the lens of “Take Every Wave: the Life of Laird Hamilton,” a documentary directed by the Academy Award nominated Rory Kennedy. 

“The Donut King” is Alice’s feature directorial debut and was slated to premiere at the 2020 SXSW film festival. Despite the festival’s cancellation, the film won the Special Jury Prize for Excellence in Documentary Storytelling, and went on to win the One in a Million Award at the 2020 Sun Valley Film Festival. “The Donut King” is about the rise and fall of a Cambodian refugee turned donut tycoon. Ted’s story is one of fate, love, survival, hard knocks, and redemption. It's the rags to riches story of a refugee escaping Cambodia, arriving in America in 1975, and building an unlikely multi-million-dollar empire baking America's favorite pastry: the donut. Ted sponsored hundreds of visas for incoming refugees, and helped them get on their feet teaching them the ways of the donut business.

Alice Gu: I want to say Dazed and Confused, but I think Forrest Gump had more impact on me.

Duane Fernandez: Interesting. How so?

Alice Gu: I remember it more clearly now. I remember the emotions more clearly, whereas Dazed and Confused, I was like, "Yeah, I remember that movie." And it was really cool and it was the cool movie at the time, but there isn't really an emotion attached to it, the way that there was with Forrest Gump.

Duane Fernandez: Hey there friends. Let me tell you about Alice. Alice Gu is an award-winning director in DP. She began her career as a director of photography, working with world renowned directors like Warner Hertzog, Stacey Peralta, Rory Kennedy, no big deal. Just Hertzog, Peralta, and Kennedy, and that's just to name a few. I'm also very fortunate to call Alice a friend of mine, a dear friend, and a long time collaborator. I've had the opportunity to work with her on some amazing projects, and I've been lucky enough to see firsthand at what makes her an incredible filmmaker. I think it's three key parts. One, Alice's extensive background in cinematography. She can already see the shot in her head and she can communicate that to everyone around her. I think this is such a powerful skill for a director. Two, she has exceptional taste. Just that. She has unbelievable taste. Three, she's kind.

She works effectively and efficiently with her team to achieve great results. Throughout the podcast we're going to talk about The Donut King, which is Alice's feature directorial debut and was slated to premier at the 2020 SXSW Film Festival, which was canceled due to COVID. Despite the cancellation, the film still won the special jury prize for excellence in documentary storytelling. It also won the one in a million award at the 2020 Sun Valley Film Festival. The Donut King is about the rise and fall of a Cambodian refugee turned donut tycoon. Ted's story is one of fate, love, survival, hard knocks and redemption. It's the rags to richest story of a refugee escaping Cambodia arriving in America in 1975 and building an unlikely multi-billion dollar empire baking America's favorite pastry, the donut. Ted sponsored hundreds of visas for incoming refugees and helped them get on their feet teaching the ways of the donut business. The Donut King is executive produced by academy award winners, Ridley Scott and Freida Lee Mock.

It's a brilliant documentary and I highly recommend you all check it out, but before you do, let's learn a little bit more about Alice and this film. There's something I wanted to talk about. I was like, I think we've discussed this, but I've never really gotten dug deep on it, but how did you get into filmmaking? More like, when was the idea in your mind that you're like, I want to pursue this? How old were you and what were... What happened?

Alice Gu: Probably college like 17, 18, 19, early on in college. I decided I wanted to work in movies simply because I wanted to work in movies. I actually didn't really know what I wanted to do in movies. I thought it was production design, but I thought it would be a very fun and interesting place to work. And so, I graduated school with the intention of being a production designer, because you're very visual and I'm pretty visual, still visual, so that seemed like the natural thing to do.

Duane Fernandez: That's crazy, I had no idea. Is it something that you're still very passionate about when you're composing a scene or an interview? Are you constantly thinking just so much about all the things, but putting special care into the design of the set?

Alice Gu: I am. I have to say it really irks me if there's not enough budget to do it properly.

Duane Fernandez: Yeah. I think it's one of those things that's... When you look at budgets on projects or... In development oftentimes, that's the one thing they're not necessarily focused on. No,

Alice Gu: No, they always want to [inaudible] out on our department and I think that's not fair. And I think it's shortsighted because you can have, oh God, you can have all the A-list actors you want, you can hire the best DP. The best DP can only do his job as well as the place looks good, [inaudible]. And as you know, I went from, well, wanting to be a production designer and going into being a DP and a production designer is my best friend as a DP.

Duane Fernandez: Talk us through from production design to where you are now. What were the big career steps that took place and then I'll dig in deeper why those decisions were made. But how did you get to where you are now? What came next after production design?

Alice Gu: So I worked for production design and... I mean, that was trying to be like... This was in the very, very Genesis of it all. So I was trying to be an art PA or the unpaid art intern, so I was still working very much as a PA and I'm not sure if I ever told you this story, because it's really embarrassing and now it's a total big no-no, now that I know better, but ignorance is bliss, right? So it was one of my first jobs as a PA, I'd done a couple of good production design, like art PA jobs. But I was back on as a regular PA and the crew had broken for lunch in a commercial. We were shooting at Universal. It was my first time on the Universal lot, working there. Everything was like bigger than life, and I did the biggest no-no. Again, this is embarrassing to share because it's such a [inaudible] but I, as a PA, I was like, "Oh look, look at that Dolly sitting there with that big Panavision camera on there. I wonder what it feels like to look through that eye piece."

And oh my God, I climbed onto the Dolly. I mean, I knew it was [inaudible], I did it when no one was looking clearly and I did it really fast because I kind of knew that it was wrong, but I was like, "Oh, if I just take a quick peek." And I took a quick peek through that eye piece and... What I studied my degree is actually in photography. And I looked through that eye piece and it sounds super cheesy, but I remember clear as day, it felt like a mother's hug.

Duane Fernandez: Hmm. That's interesting.

Alice Gu: It was this sense of everything making sense in the world and everything coming together and it was instantaneous. It was this, oh my God. I'm like, "I've been going at this all wrong." I thought I wanted to go into art direction and production design, but no, this, nothing has ever felt more right than looking through this eye piece and seeing this composition. And it was right then and there that I decided to go into camera and really pivot right then and there. And then I started asking to go into camera PA, unpaid camera intern, however I could get a leg up. It's kind of actually a really long story, so I think I'll spare you that, but I'll tell you another day of how I got into camera department, but when the stars align and the synchronicities are real, that happened in a way that's truly magical. And I made my way to being a camera assistant and learning from the greats. I had the privilege of assisting for some of the best in the business Harris [Savita's] Rest In Peace.

Duane Fernandez: Wow.

Alice Gu: Sal Totino, Claudia Miranda, Dariusz Wolski. I mean, I really worked for the best of the best and learned from every single one of them had a lot of fun doing it. And from assisting Jump Your Way into, oh gosh, you start DPing and you work from like, I mean, I just named dropped some of the best DPs in the business. And from there I'm like, "Oh, okay, I'm going to make the jump to being DP." And then you go from making pretty good money as an assistant to being like, "Oh, I'll be your unpaid DP, what do you have for me?" Next thing I know I'm shooting this horrible vampire short and...

I don't know, you climb your way up from bad project and slowly they get better and better and better. But it's all part of the process because I wasn't good enough to shoot anything besides a bad vampire movie at the time, even though I wanted to be, I thought, I was like, "Oh, I'm ready to shoot. I'm ready to shoot a Moulin Rouge deal. But no, I wasn't good enough to shoot anything, but a bad vampire movie. Everything happens in its time.

Duane Fernandez: I agree. And I feel what's so interesting about production is that every project you learn so much, you just learn so much about creative and you learn a lot about business and you learn a lot about collaboration and partnerships and it just... We always laugh that whenever you go through a big life event, you get like the video game Sims. You get these little points above your head like your life, you start filling up on these different attributes. And so whenever we have this crazy project or something that you... To your point, the bad vampire movie, you still learn so much on those things that allow you to get to the next thing. And there is no fast track. And there are, I think there's some people that kind of just everything lines up perfectly, and it looks like a fast track.

And then you start digging in and there, there wasn't, they had been doing all sorts of little things in between that no one else knew about, it just seemed like that person hit the fast track and was able to be the unicorn in the industry, whatever industry it is, whether it's fashion, tech or filmmaking. People think that they just magically got the Moulin Rouge project, got the big Disney project. And then you start looking and you realize like, "Oh, they spent 10, 15 years getting here. I just wasn't aware of the things that they were working on." So that's cool, I love that. And I can't imagine the things that you learned working with such great names.

Alice Gu: Well, check this out. Here's another big name drop, but it's really cool. So [inaudible] for that bad vampire movie, because I didn't know what I was doing at all. I didn't have any crew. I had just a few friends. I had a friend who was a DP. I mean just out of USC Film School, and he is like, "I'll [inaudible] it for you." I was like, "You will?" He's like, "Sure." He's like, "I'll help you." That friend who [inaudible] my very first thing I ever shot, shot Star Wars. He shot the Rian Johnson. Which one is the Rian Johnson one, The Last Jedi?

Duane Fernandez: Is it The Last Jedi?

Alice Gu: No. It's the one before the last one.

Duane Fernandez: I don't recall. I'm bad with the Star Wars universe.

Alice Gu: Episode eight.

Duane Fernandez: Okay.

Alice Gu: Episode eight. Shot Knives Out, shot The Brothers Bloom shot... I mean, that is a friend who had that kind of talent and he is like, "I'll help you, and I know there's no money." He actually handmade lights for me because we couldn't afford anything, it was a bad vampire movie. So he built chicken coop. He built my lights for that bad vampire movie.

Duane Fernandez: That's amazing. And that's one of the things that's so interesting about... One of the things I get asked a lot from just a variety of our interns, people looking for jobs, pages when I worked for NBC Universal, at Focus Features, you would always get these questions like, how do I get to the next thing? And it just like, just start making stuff and collaborate with as many people as you can, whether it's a short, whatever you're doing, because there's these little synergies, things that happen on a set, whether it's a bad vampire movie or a commercial, you just meet people.

I remember, I met you working on a project at Focus Features and I wasn't even managing the production, I had stopped by and you guys were shooting at Coyote in West Hollywood and I was like, "Oh, I just want to check in and see how everything's going." And I swung in and I was literally up in the lofts shooting emails off on my laptop. And I remember looking down and the way you're working with your team, your assistants and the PAs and with the talent and with our producer, I was like, "This person's extraordinary." I noticed, I remember that...

Alice Gu:

No, wait, I remember that day too. I think about that day all the time, I was shooting a scary guy.

Duane Fernandez: Yeah, yeah.

Alice Gu: That was going to have blood smearing down that thing. I think about it. If I can talk about this, I'm like, "Why did Duane talk to me that day?" And remember we exchanged info, I got your card and I'm so glad you did. And there are no accidents and there are no coincidences in this world. And I'm so grateful at the risk of sounding totally [inaudible] but I mean, it is. I really believe that. And I'm super grateful that you're one of my dear favorite friends and it was that one day at Coyote shooting this dreadful looking horror guy, like a promo. And anyway, thank you. Thank you for that.

Duane Fernandez: Yeah. I mean, it was just, I could just see it. I mean, spotting talent to me is the details. I remember you making lighting adjustments, camera adjustments, making recommendations for talent. Yeah, you're right. We were shooting a bunch of promotional stuff for this film. And I could see that you were clearly an incredible creative person who was doing more than shooting promotional stuff. You're looking at it as a little short. You're looking at it just totally differently. But really what I admired was your ability and your collaboration with all your partners who are down on the floor. And I'm like, this is amazing and it's rare. I mean, for me working in... I've had a chance to work a lot of places all over the world. LA and New York, it's a business and it's just like, get a job done, move the next thing.

And it's just a job. They're all a bunch of jobs. And there's few people who are like, "No, it's more than a job. I have to really take care of this thing and make sure it's executed properly, and I want to treat my people well." And when I'm watching people do that, they stand out to me in this business. And you did, immediately I'm like this person's extraordinary collaborator with great taste and attention to detail. And like those things, I mean, are priceless and they're so hard to find, accountability. So they all amount to accountability, whether it's treating people well or getting the job done or delivering above and beyond. And you absolutely did. I just remember actually like a week later being in the big marketing meetings and watching them present these pieces and I was like, "These are extraordinary." They were so happy. I'm like, "Yeah, you should have seen how they were shot." So yeah, I remember that day lot.

Alice Gu: Well, I am nothing without the good people I surround myself with.

Duane Fernandez: Yeah. You have a great eye for talent. I mean, that's another thing is that you know. I mean, we've worked on projects where you've had to bring on people that I didn't know. And I just trust that if you're like, "Oh, this person's great." And I'm really mindful of the people that I work with and usually to vet them. I know that if you're recommending somebody, I don't even have to have a conversation with the person, I'm like, "Cool, Rad. They're going to be amazing." And every single time they have been, I've never like... It's awesome. So you do surround yourself with great, smart, creative and kind people. So yeah. I'll save all the glory about Alice until the intro that you don't get to hear until the episode's public. But let's talk about Donut King. So how you've been on a journey with this for, publicly, about a year now. I remember, I think it started going out in the world, it would've been SXSW, but COVID changed that and became a digital type event. And that was about a year ago, right?

Alice Gu: Yep.

Duane Fernandez: So over this last year, how would you describe how Donut King has been a part of your life?

Alice Gu: It's been such a weird year because Donut King was such a large part of my life. And it was, I mean, there was no blueprint for it already for things going digital or having to... What I had imagined for my life for that year, I was like, "Oh my God, this year's going to be so fun. I'm going to be here and there, there's going to be so many fun parties. I'm going to meet all these new friends." It's going to be like, "Oh, I can't wait in the fall, I'm going to be in Hawaii. And then we're going to be in Napa with me and Martha's vineyard, all these different places." I ended up being in my living room basically the whole year and, oh God, it was a whole ride of emotions with COVID hitting and the festivals counseling.

Selfishly, I thought that Donut King might become a ghost film. Everybody was preoccupied, no one was really... This was something that was so new and unprecedented in the world that all people were talking about was COVID and all I really wanted people to talk about was donuts. I was really afraid that it was going to be a ghost movie and we would never find a home for it. No one would ever see it and what I'd work, not I, the whole team had worked so hard to create was just... We were like, "Oh my God, are we just going to self-release this at some point, and I'll just have to be happy with that and accept it." But the world did end up... People are funny. People adapt and they found ways to pivot into digital formats.

And I found myself doing a lot of virtual panels and Q and A's and participating in virtual film festivals and actually winning some awards and getting acquired and getting acquired internationally and getting acquired in other territories and it was awesome. It was awesome. I can't say... I don't have anything to compare it to, but I would imagine that it doesn't beat the real thing as far as being out there in real life, in the world that I had imagined that I would be in before the 2020 COVID year. But it was a tremendous year.

Duane Fernandez: That's amazing. I'm so happy to hear that you feel that way about it. You've probably have said this, I'm guessing roughly 200 times, but how do you describe The Donut King to people who... When you're doing these interviews, like when you're doing podcasts and you're talking to press, how do you describe what The Donut King is?

Alice Gu: Gosh, The Donut King is, and you're right, I have said this 200 times, but I still have to struggle to find the words every single time. And I don't really know how-

Duane Fernandez: I love that.

Alice Gu:... that's the possible. I feel like it should be out there, like rapid fire now, but The Donut King is a movie about, I really think it's everybody, it's all of our movie, because we all have... I mean, unless you're from one very particular ethnic group, we all have roots somewhere else. We're all immigrants to this country, America, where we are, whether that's first generation, second generation or fourth generation, we all... Somebody immigrated here from somewhere else to look for a better life. And that's really what The Donut King is about. It's about finding the American dream. It's about a Cambodian refugee who escapes genocide and war in his native Cambodia, arrives penniless to Camp Pendleton in 1975 to a country with no money and no friends, no knowledge of the culture with the family and has to figure it out and with grit and the kindness of strangers, he finds his footing here in America.

And within three years becomes a millionaire in this country, shakes hands with four US presidents and build an unlikely empire of independent donut shops. And along the way, there's the second wave of Cambodian refugees. And since he was already established, he sponsored hundreds of refugees, helping them get their solid footing in America and they're shot at the American dream and multiplied. And so, it's an American dream story. It's an immigrant story. And I say, American dream but it is really... It's a very American story.

Duane Fernandez: Yeah. I agree. And thank you for sharing that, I thought that was... I'm always amazed when filmmakers are able to talk about their films after doing a bunch of press especially like a year of it, it's not like you and I are doing this interview a week after the sale or SXSW, and you're still trying to find it. But I love that you're still like, "I don't, I haven't. There isn't a soundbite." You're just still discovering it. And I think that you... Whenever I hear you talk about it, I think you will continuously... I think that will keep evolving. I think you'll keep changing, because as the world changes, the story does in a way, right? It has the core of what the story is. But as every year that goes by, there's a new... You cover a lot of topics.

There's going to be a new element that's going to shine and pop out and resonate with fans. It was such a wonderful documentary. I'm so amazed that I'm blessed to know who you are so I can talk to you about it because it is great. I know because of COVID, you didn't get to watch people leave a theater, but I have to imagine at some point when the world slowly opens up, there's going to have to be a special live screening. And as those people are leaving, watching The Donut King and they're walking out of the theater, what do you hope they feel when they're walking away?

Alice Gu: I had two, quote, unquote, theatrical experiences with The Donut King in this last year. For one, I did have a sneaky in person theater experience.

Duane Fernandez: Oh awesome.

Alice Gu: There was one theater during our theatrical run. There was one theater in California that was playing The Donut King and it was in Orange County. And I just said, I looked at the risk and the reward and I said, "Look, I just, I have to go. I can't have my first movie release and not see it theatrically." So I went and I invited The Donut King's family because a lot of them are in Orange County and they all came. We sold out the theater, at COVID capacity, but we sold out the theater and this was the reaction. This was what I really wanted. What mattered most to me was the family reaction because they had placed their story that is so precious and so personal to them.

And they entrusted me with it, for me to present it with care and respectfully and truthfully. And their opinion is really the one that mattered the most to me above all critics and everything else. And we left the theater in Christy. So this is Ted's ex-wife, she was there and she came out and some of the grandkids and they came out crying and they thanked me. And they said, "Thank you so much. Now we know so much more about our grandpa that we didn't really know." Christy, I talked to her, she said, "No, that was so good. It was incredible to see it on the big screen." She's like, "It was really hard to relive some of that trauma and to see it on the big screen." And we mixed it with the intention of seeing it on the big screen.

So the war and the bombs, that was all, gosh, I don't know, triggering for her, but that was hugely rewarding to get the approval of the family. And there was another virtual screening was with USC and actually it was part of the USC school cinematic arts filming film series. And I think the guy who curates it, he wasn't just being nice. He said, "The turnout has been overwhelming about triple what it usually is." It was like 338 people who had tuned in and the Q and A from that screening had this energy and buzz like no other. And so many people were just buzzing with questions and they were thinking about, and this is... It wasn't just young people, it was current students and it's faculty and it's alumnus.

So it really is a whole range of people. But some of the younger kids that they see America as, I don't know America the way that it's been, and they see this film, they're like, "Hey, we really love this and we really connected with it, but you do you think that this is still possible? This is a different time." It's been pretty cool to dis America as of late. And this wasn't, I didn't make the film to be like, yes, pro-America with a pro-America banner, I just really presented the information as it was, which was years ago, we had some different policy when it came to accepting refugees and immigrants and building on the success and building this kind of future legacy and generation of Asian Americans or what have you.

And they said, "Well, can you still do this? The American dream, this can't happen now. This is dead. This would never happen today." And I said, "No, I think you are wrong because I recently just spoke with kind of a new friend of mine from Egypt who had escaped Arab Spring to come. I mean, he grew up at a certain socioeconomic class in Egypt and would only end up in a certain socioeconomic class in Egypt. And he goes, "Look, now I live in America. I just married the girl of my dreams, this American girl, we live in San Diego, she's a surfer." He's like, "I'm now a surfer. I'm an Egyptian surfer and I have this job." And he's like... So from his perspective, he's like, "What is everybody complaining about? This is the greatest country me in the world." He's like, "Trust me, I came from Egypt." And when he said that story, I was like, "Oh my God, perspective is everything."

And Jose, my producer on it, he answered the question the same way. He says, "You know what I think, really, if you're not from here, you have a different relationship and different perspective of what America has to offer, and so, no, that American dream is not dead."

Duane Fernandez: The animation, how did you approach and the decisions to what to animate and how to animate it? I was really curious about how you did that.

Alice Gu: I worked with my editor, Carol Martori on how there were so many blank spaces where we didn't have visuals to cover a story. And we're like, "Okay, well, could we use archival here? Could we use animation here?" And I'm very analog. So I have the whole script printed out and we were like writing it and looking at everything and looking to see if there were consistencies. We're like, "Oh God, we can't just have it be a mess. We have to have some sort of cohesive story here, whether it's everything that's before 1970 is animated and everything after is... We can recreate it or whatnot." And we started on that path. However, we did end up breaking the rules and it didn't bother me and I hope it didn't bother anyone else because you're like, "Oh God, is it going to seem like a mess?" But no one, fingers crossed, no one has said anything.

Duane Fernandez: Yeah, I didn't know too.

Alice Gu: I mean, there was some trial and error. We did do some recreations of scenes and we stuck them in, we're like, "This looks like film school 101. We cannot do this. Let's go back to animation." And we just found that the animation was the most powerful way to tell the stories. Andrew Hem, the artist, his key artwork was so deep and rich. There was just nothing, I mean, there's no comparison.

Duane Fernandez: Yeah. It's so good. And I think that even just that... One, first to answer your question, I didn't notice it and I'm a stickler when it comes to editorial stuff. So I did not notice the rules breaking, never felt that way. I didn't feel like you were cheating at any point with the animation. Yeah, no, it felt so good and I loved it. And the music, going back to soundtracks in the beginning of our conversation, was extraordinary. The way that you blended the animation with the live action and then you pick the perfect soundtrack, if you will and tracks to help punch up and the emotionality of it. By the way, you should have a soundtrack. Is there a soundtrack that I can just like... Is there a Spotify playlist?

Alice Gu: There is. Liza Richardson made one.

Duane Fernandez: Oh, awesome.

Alice Gu:

So there is The Donut King soundtrack on Spotify.

Duane Fernandez: All right. I'll definitely share that in the podcast notes with everybody. What was your favorite track? There's a lot of really good tracks in this. What was your favorite track in this film? I know that's a lot to ask.

Alice Gu: Oh geez. It's one of two. I'm sure you know the answer to one, it would be C.R.E.A.M. It's Wu-Tang. That one means a lot. And also, it was so hard to get that track that it... That one, I feel like that is like an Oscar. I feel like that should be on a pedestal for me. And the other one is our title sequence. It's Geek Down by J Dilla. However, it was supposed to be Workinonit.

Duane Fernandez: So what happened?

Alice Gu: 10cc would not play ball.

Duane Fernandez: Mm. So...

Alice Gu: It's a very contentious sampling and contentious litigation between J Dilla's estate and 10cc, not clear, not clearable.

Duane Fernandez: Oh, it's a bummer.

Alice Gu: And the irony is the 10cc track that is sampled for Workinonit, is called Worst Band in the World.

Duane Fernandez: Oh really?

Alice Gu: And I'm like, "Come on 10cc." I'm like, "You really are being the Worst Band in the World right now, if you're not clearing this track." So that is the story behind. Yeah.

Duane Fernandez: I didn't know. I mean, I felt it was really, I mean, anything J Dilla but with... Going back to C.R.E.A.M, were you in camera when you were like, "I need to put..." Was it while it was happening that you immediately heard the song C.R.E.A.M while you were filming or did you see it and then you're like, "We got to use C.R.E.A.M."

Alice Gu: I wish I could say that it was all me. So Carol, and we had our assistant editors, we had [Ramel Mendoza] and we had Rob [Menalong] and we'd given this kind of rough directive. They're like, "all right. Well, what do you want from music?" I said, okay, well, compositionally, I want this kind of flavor, music and tracks that we're going to license. This is what we're looking for with a hip hop bent and this is the energy, this is the flavor. And I saw a rough cut of that first scene. And it was Ramel who dropped in C.R.E.A.M. And I was like, "Oh my God." There could be no other track. And I knew the phone calls that I had to make right after that. I had to call Jose. And this is a documentary, we don't have any money.

And I had to call Jose. I'm like, "Jose, don't kill me." He's like, "What?" I'm like, "There's a song." I'm like, "This is non-negotiable. We have to get this song. It's Wu-Tang." And Jose, bless him, so he never panics. And he says, "Okay, all right. We'll work it out." But I know inside he's like, "Fuck Alice." And then the next thing I do is I call Liza Richardson and she... A lot of tempo music and editors, they're kind of the music supervisors. They can be the bane of the existence, because they will do something like put C.R.E.A.M in there. And they're like, and the music supervisor is like, "There's fucking no way we can clear this." We don't have the money, this is an unclearable track or for whatever reason, I was like, "Liza, don't kill me. I got to clear C.R.E.A.M, and she was like, "oh my God." She's like, "We don't even know if it's clearable." But is it nonnegotiable. If it can be cleared, we have to get it. And anyway, I utilized every trick I had up my sleeve to get C.R.E.A.M.

Duane Fernandez: That's amazing. And editors are very clever that way. And I think it's not only in features, but in an advertising and in trailers too. I think that one of the best advice I could give people who want to work in [inaudible] and work on trailers is to put in the dopest song possible because it will sell through the idea whether they can clear the song or not, the client, the producers, the financeers are going to be like, "This is the greatest sequence I've ever seen. This is the greatest trailer I've ever seen." You're like, "Yeah, now we got to find a new song."

Alice Gu: And that is the power of music. And that is why they're so expensive and deservedly so because they make you feel something.

Duane Fernandez: Oh they're just so highly emotional.

Alice Gu: And for cream to set the tone of the film within the first 40 seconds, that's it, you know you're in for a ride.

Duane Fernandez: Yeah. It's good. It's so good. I love that story so much. One of my favorite questions to ask people is, so this is not the question to you, what's the best advice you'd give to your 16 year old self? I'm not going to ask you that question. I'm going to ask you, what advice would you give yourself when you first started this journey? If you can go back and give yourself one piece of advice, like right when you started working on The Donut King, what advice would you give yourself right then that you learned along this way?

Alice Gu: It sounds so cheesy, but it's never give up. I mean, and that's everything. I mean that is never give up. I got C.R.E.A.M, never get up. I mean, never get up, never give up. I got the mansion scene that's in the film. That is something that I wanted for about 18 months.

Duane Fernandez: Really?

Alice Gu: I mean every single day, every single day, morning, noon, and night, I was like, "How am I going to shoot inside that mansion?" Did I ever tell you the mansion story?

Duane Fernandez: No, I don't know the story. Please tell me.

Alice Gu: Okay. The mansion that he lived in, and is featured prominently in the film, integrated community. I was like, "How on earth?" Never in my wildest dreams did I even think about getting the interior of the mansion, but I just wanted to get an exterior shot. I'm like, "I have to show how a big and baller he lived at one point." And in a gated community, I called an influential person that I know in Orange County. I was like, "Hey." I'm like, "Can you help me?" I'm like, "You must know somebody." I'm like, "How can I get into these gated communities?" And he was like, "God, Alice, the gated community is... They're gated for a reason to keep people like you out. And you can't just walk in. It's on the lake and you can't just roll up with a big old camera."

He's like, "Oh man." So I'm like, "I'm really not going to get the mansion." The best I could find was an old picture from the MLS of the mansion. And then that just kind of wasn't cutting it for me, but I sort of accepted, but not really. And so when Ted was here for three weeks and it was the day before he was going to leave and I thanked his oldest son, Chad, for driving him around, taking time off work, driving him from Orange County to Pasadena and all over. And I said, "Oh Chad, thank you so much." And he's like, "Yeah." And around Newport all over the place. And I said, "Thank you so much. We got a lot of good stuff. "And I'm like, "Took that trip down memory lane, your first condo." And he's like, "Yeah."

And it was more of like a little comment, like sort of under my breath. I was like, "God, I wish that mansion in Mission Viejo, I can't believe that's the one that got away." And he said very casually, not even, he said, "Well, if you have $3.2 million, you can buy it. It's on the market." And I was like, "Stop, stop, stop. Did you just say that it's on the market?" And he said, "Yeah." And I was like, "What is the address?" 27572 [inaudible] or whatever it was. I immediately typed in the address. I went to Redfin, immediately scheduled an open house.

Duane Fernandez: Amazing.

Alice Gu: And I was like, "Okay, how am I going to do this?" And I had to scheme him all my different stories. I'm like, all right, do I pretend that Ted is my father and I'm going to go in this weird crazy rich Asian. And my dad's going to buy this for me and I film everything because I'm an influencer. I'm thinking of all these different ways-

Duane Fernandez: I love it so much.

Alice Gu:... of how I'm going to go in with a big camera. The realtor, his name is Joe [Piscopo] of all names. He calls me and he said, "Hey." He's like, "So you're interested in the open house?" And I said, "Yes." I was ready to spit a number of lies out there and he said, "Okay, great. Well, if you can just show me your proof of funds and a pre-qual letter." And I was like, "Proof of funds on a $3.2 million purchase and a pre-qual." I'm like, I'm not pre-qualified to buy 3.2 million house. And I was like, "Okay, think fast. Think fast, think fast. How am I going to lie my way out of this one?"

And I decided to come clean. I was like, "Joe, I'm going to tell you, I have no interest in buying this house. I'm not going to buy it. This is what I'm up to. I'm a filmmaker." Da, da, da. I tell him the story. There's a brief moment of silence. And he is like, "Alice, that is incredible. I'm going to help you." And I was like, "What?" He's like, "I'm going to get you this. I have to help you. You have to go inside that house." So he calls the owner and I mean, if hours go by and Ted's leaving tomorrow and I was like, "Joe, what's on?" He's like, "Oh God." He's like, "I'm helping, but the owner's not playing ball and the realtor,." He's like, "Hey, can you tell me what kind of last name this is? It's these two letters, A N." And I'm like, "Oh." Now I'm like, "It's a Chinese person." I say this being a Chinese person. I'm like, "Okay." I'm like culturally, the Chinese person isn't going to be the one who's like, "Oh yeah, sure. I'll let you in my home."

Duane Fernandez: Just come swing by and check it out. Yeah.

Alice Gu: For no money. And I'm like, "Okay, can we offer money?" And he's like, "No." He's like, "They're being sticklers. They want the letter. They want a pre-qual letter and they want proof of funds." And it's like, "Shit, I can't believe we were so..." He's like, "I'm so sorry. We really tried." And I was like, "No way." Come nine o'clock that night, 9:15, 9:30, way too late to call someone you don't know. I couldn't give up. And I was like, "What is the name of this guy?" I'm like, "This realtor must have his cell phone number listed somewhere. I'm going to call him right now." And I look him up and I fine his name is Jackie [inaudible], he has a 66 number. And I call him again. Again, way too late to be calling somebody. He picks up the phone and I said, "Hey." And I decided to come at him in Chinese.

Duane Fernandez: Okay.

Alice Gu: And I said, "Hey, I don't have the money to buy this house. This is the deal." And he listens and listens and he's like, "Okay, the lock box will be open for you tomorrow at 8:00 AM."

Duane Fernandez: What?

Alice Gu: And it worked.

Duane Fernandez: Wow.

Alice Gu: And we were there the next day filming in the mansion.

Duane Fernandez: Wow. That is unbel... I can't believe I don't know this story.

Alice Gu: Never, never give up.

Duane Fernandez: That's incredible. By the way, I'm going to end a series notes for this episode. I'm going to have to give a shout to both these real estate agents because that's awesome. And anyone in Orange County area looking to buy or sell needs to use them because that's amazing. I'm glad that they heard this story and both of them were like, "Oh cool, thanks for telling me, and I want help." That's extraordinary.

Alice Gu: The Chinese one was a little... I had to control him a lot more. And he was reluctant because Chinese people are very superstitious. And he says, "Oh." He's like, "You mean, somebody went bankrupt in that house." He's like, "So I'm very worried now, if somebody's going to see this movie and this house is for sale, a Chinese person isn't going to buy the house knowing that somebody else went bankrupt there first." And I said, "You don't have to worry. This house will be sold long before this movie... I have a year of editorial ahead of me. Don't even worry about it." And he said, "Okay, okay. They said okay." And I'm like, "I'll pay you money to open up." He's like, "You have to pay me money." He's like, "Just go."

Duane Fernandez: That's incredible. Yeah, never give up. I think that's the one thing that a lot people don't realize when they embark on a big venture, whether it's writing a book or script, producing a film, purchasing a documentary is the amount of... You have to be your biggest cheerleader. You have to be the one that wakes up every day that says, "I have to overcome these 156 problems today and get this project across the finish line." When you come up with the idea, it's super fun and exciting. When you get into it, you start to actually putting the things together is when that perseverance really, really has to come into play. And I think it's one of the most important attributes to success in any industry is perseverance, but especially in creative, because creative's such an emotional rollercoaster. You come in and see the incredible cut with the cream over it.

And you're like, that's amazing. And you go home and you've got to challenge to get through a handful of issues. And you just kind of want to quit at times. And you just to yourself in your own moment of time, be like, "I can't believe we're doing this. This is exhausting. It's so much easier to do something else. Why did I put myself through this?" And you kind of ask your... You give yourself that moment. And you're like, "You know what? No. Now we go back to making phone calls and see if we can get a tour of this mansion." So, incredible work. That's awesome. What a cool story.

Alice Gu: Thank you. Sorry, it was a little long, but I hope it was worth it.

Duane Fernandez: No, no, that is totally. I mean, that's the thing, it's oftentimes when I hear interviews and I hear whether it's a creative or a professional business person in economics or technology, whatever it is, it's always the success stories, right? It's always when the... It's always about how easy things were. It's not these little detail. When someone goes and sees The Donut King now or if they did see it, they'll go look back at that scene and not... At no point in the documentary do you talk about how hard it was to get the scene. So you're going to be like this sequence, this scene was that hard and how important it was after seeing the whole film, that was critical. Watching Ted walk to that house was so deeply emotional. Imagine the height of your success 20, 30 years ago and you have to go back and walk through that mansion, literally you're walking through a ghost town and you're just like, "This was a previous version of myself."

And watching him is almost like, as I can imagine from a production standpoint, everyone just disappeared when he was walking through that house, it was just him. And you could tell, no one was there anymore. It was just Ted by himself with his thoughts in this structure and I love that. And knowing this story now only makes that scene that much more valuable and special. So, awesome.

Alice Gu: Yeah. I can't imagine not having that scene in the film. I don't know what we would've done.

Duane Fernandez: Yeah. It just ties so much, so many things together. That was so funny, I have a question right here, do you speak any other languages? You speak Mandarin?

Alice Gu: I speak Mandarin, Spanish, English.

Duane Fernandez: Incredible. Did you grow up speaking Mandarin or did you learn it later or was it a part of your life from the very beginning?

Alice Gu: It was my first language.

Duane Fernandez: Did your parents speak to you only in Mandarin or did they do both?

Alice Gu: My mom only in Mandarin and my dad at some point gave up and spoke English.

Duane Fernandez: Why did you feel when you started this, that this story needed to be told.

Alice Gu: Oh, you know what? It wasn't even... There wasn't so much conscious thought into it. It was right when I read the story and found out about the story, all of the five senses just lit up and maybe it was being in the [inaudible] or whatever it is, but it was just, it was this feeling of this is it. This is the story. And I was possessed like I had never been before that with every fiber of my being the conviction, that this was a story that had to be told, but if I reflect on it now and why all of the synopsis were firing in the way they were, I think it was because it was my story. It was me. It was my family story without being my family story. I instantly emotionally connected to the story of them coming here and building a life for themselves. And these are stories that I've never heard from my parents about their experiences and what it was like and how did you feel? And were you scared or the language? Did anybody make fun of you? You raised American kids.

These were questions that I never asked, but every single story I could relate too. And I think that it, it was a way that I could tell my story without it being my story.

Duane Fernandez: How can we make the world a better place?

Alice Gu: How can we make the world a better place while this will be a bit of a Pollyanna answer, but I am an optimist and a glass half full person. And it is a bit of this donut diplomacy, I feel like some of the best connections and understandings are made with food. So in The Donut King story, when Ted arrived in Orange County, a very white homogenous Orange County in the seventies and people Ching Chong'd him and made fun of his language and couldn't really understand him, that's the first reaction. Are these people bad people? Maybe it's a little mean-spirited, but they don't really know better. And as they got to know him and made friends and Ted said, "Look, when we started making a little money, then I would donate $5 to like Billy's little league game."

And then they're like, "Oh, they're cool." And then you start asking questions. In fact, there's a movie that I'm working on right now. And it was a psych experiment from the nineties, the [inaudible] experiment, and it's 36 questions. And it said it guarantees two people, any two people can fall in love if they go through this exercise of asking 36 questions. And you realize that we all have this exterior. If you're a rapper, if you're a skater, if you're a surfer, slacker burnout, if you're a nerd, we all kind of adopt these different narratives that we present out to the world. And you don't really present out to the world your deepest vulnerabilities are like what you really are. And I feel like more of that understanding whether that can be breaking bread over food or whatnot, but I feel like that is what can make the world a better place, taking the time to think about some empathy and the fact that we are... Actually, I think that we're more alike than we are different.

Duane Fernandez: Thank you for taking the time to listen to our conversation, it means a lot. And if you enjoyed it, please take a moment to subscribe, share it with somebody, leave a comment. All those things help these stories reach a wider audience. You can watch The Donut King on a variety of streaming platforms. I'll actually link the trailer and the official website and the show notes so you can find more information. You can find The Donut King on Instagram at The Donut King Film. You can check out Alice on a Instagram at G Bird, G-U B-I-R-D. And as always, you can find us on Instagram at The Smith Society Pod. Have a wonderful day, and thank you so much.

The Donut King
Executive produced by Academy Award winners Ridley Scott and Freida Lee Mock.

Alice Gu on Instagram: www.instagram.com/gubird

“The Donut King” Trailer: https://youtu.be/aLKugGKgJsQ

“The Donut King” official website: www.donutkingmovie.com

“The Donut King” Spotify playlist: https://bit.ly/the-donut-king-playlist

Find us on Instagram: www.instagram.com/thesmithsocietypod

Host: Duane Fernandez
Email and ask a question or share a thought: info@voksee.com

The Smith Society theme song by: Steady Cadence
Steady Cadence is a brilliant father daughter duo out of North Carolina. There is an episode later this season about the theme song, their unique sound which blends together analog and digital, their inspiration, creative approach and how Cadence, who is currently in middle school, has so much soul.

The Smith Society logo: Designer, Chris Scott
Sound Mixer: Paul Stula
Edited by: Marshall Baker

Follow your dreams, no matter where they take you.